Prosecute War Crimes? Nope.

[rispacooper]

Dear Obama (you typical shady, lying politician),

Not holding anyone accountable for torture and then patting yourself on the back for ending it is a big bag of hypocritical bullshit. Using the excuse that those who tortured others were acting with the guidance and approval of the Justice Department is another steaming pile of crap. As the Right Honourable Stephen Colbert (and his team of writers) have pointed out, the idea that just following orders makes horrendous acts acceptable has not been allowed since the Nuremburg Trials.

And though many claims about those trials fairness have been made in the following years, one idea has emerged from them and remained over the years. That just following orders does not make it okay. That in a situation like that, *everyone* who allowed it to happen is accountable, but especially those that *gave the orders*.

In other words (even though not once did I ever vote for Bush or his friends) all of America is partly to blame and has to accept that. And if the average person must take part of the blame, than those who were in charge absolutely MUST be held accountable. Otherwise as a government and a country we can make no further claims to right, or to justice.



Anyone wishing to know what the hell I'm talking about: Obama's policy on accountability

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Comments

I hope I'm good, just not sure I'm any better.

[fifi-bonsai.livejournal.com]

I totally understand the righteous anger over this, but didn't they have a study about this following orders crap? About how most people could be torturers if they feel backed up by a higher authority? Might even have felt like they were sacrificing their personal morals for the good of their country or whatever the bullshit brainwash. Hard to know how we'd fare in that situation. There by the Grace of Something or Other go I.

EDIT: Because I realize I sound like I'm condoning torture and like I'm saying, "Well, we're not any better, then they shouldn't be prosecuted." What I rly think {tl;dr thoughts on yaoi} is that since we're not going to prosecute the authority (Bush, Cheney) then-- is prosecuting the people who followed orders rly about justice? Or about punishing someone because we don't like how this makes us feel?

Re: I hope I'm good, just not sure I'm any better.

[rispacooper.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying hang 'em high. I'm just saying that the government right now is saying, they were obeying orders, they aren't culpable, and the people who gave the orders aren't culpable either.

What the hell? Everyone's responsible for this on some level, and I really don't like them sliding out of it.

Re: I hope I'm good, just not sure I'm any better.

[fifi-bonsai.livejournal.com]

I think-- I have no clue what I think. It's just. I'm numb or something. I live in a day and age where people torture and I'm talking about it and experiencing some sort of vague feeling of guilt and sympathy?

Maybe they should have done what they did after the Aparthaid. They can "go free" but only if they take some level of responsibility and confess to everything.

Perhaps Obama feels like the culpability spreads so far and so wide that it's impossible to prosecute in a fair manner. I still think we'd only be hoking the smaller fish. Like we always do. Then people feel better and everything smells like a combination of shit and flowers. I should probably STFU and just let it settle before I say anything else about it. I'm still shocked that I'm even having this conversation about the U.S.

Re: I hope I'm good, just not sure I'm any better.

[rispacooper.livejournal.com]

I think that's it. I think I'm like...we did this?

The confess and go free solution sounds appealing. Cuz

Re: I hope I'm good, just not sure I'm any better.

[rispacooper.livejournal.com]

(having typing issues today)

Because I don't want blood, but I want some Bushie to admit it was WRONG

Re: I hope I'm good, just not sure I'm any better.

[fifi-bonsai.livejournal.com]

Heh
I typed AparthAid. <3

I wish that was possible, but it doesn't seem likely.

[utterfrivolity.livejournal.com]

The complicating factor in all of this is our completely fucked-up legal system, in which it is possible to make serious arguments that certain methods of torture are perfectly legal. John Yoo and John Ashcroft need to be prosecuted, and I think Bush and Cheney as well, although that would absolutely ruin the Democratic party. George Tenet should be held responsible for the fact that his agency did not do its research before carrying out torture, along with any other decision-maker at the CIA who contributed to that negligence.

But as far as those involved in the actual torture, I don't know how you prosecute someone for doing something the United States Attorney General has said is legal, particularly if those people aren't lawyers and don't have the training or resources to interpret the law differently. Does that come down to just following orders? You could certainly argue that it does. But because of the uncertainty inherent in our legal system, I don't know how government agents can operate without being able to trust the opinion of the government's top lawyers.

[rispacooper.livejournal.com]

Then I suppose the question is, would it have been illegal to disobey the order? Which my guess is, it isn't. I mean, even the army (now, after My Lai) has protocol for disobeying orders you feel are unethical.

If it would have hurt their careers, but not otherwise affecting their lives and freedom, I don't see why they shouldn't be held accountable.

I don't think it will actually happen though.

[utterfrivolity.livejournal.com]

I wasn't really thinking about whether those involved found the orders unethical. I think the ethics question is a lot more complicated than the legal question. Unless you're a member of a profession with a clear code of ethics (e.g. doctors or lawyers), it comes down to personal morality, and I think it was the personal morality of many of the men involved that led them to commit crimes (i.e. the belief that it's right to torture one person to save many, or that it's right to torture those who have committed crimes). So I don't really care what people think is right and wrong, I care whether they're following the law, which is the best expression we have of our shared values.

But I probably just think that way because I'm a lawyer. *g*

[rispacooper.livejournal.com]

Do secret documents handed out by the Justice Department that no one voted for count as law?

[utterfrivolity.livejournal.com]

Of course not. The problem is that in the US, it can be nearly impossible to know what the law is. Much of what we do (like write fanfiction) is neither clearly legal nor clearly illegal. If you don't have an expertise in whatever area of the law, you usually rely on a lawyer's opinion and hope that you get a judge that would agree with it. And as far as opinions go, I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a memo backed by the Attorney General is a pretty reliable source.

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

You need to mosey on over to Glenn Greenwald at salon.com (I swear if my parts weren't lasered out, I'd have this man's babies). He has a recent article on why this whole issue isn't Obama's business. In fact, this is not an executive decision but a DOJ decision. That doesn't mean that he isn't trying to have his cake and eat it too, and I'm disgusted by it. I nearly had a stroke this morning over the S.F. Chronicle and that horrible, horrible woman Debra Saunders. Justifying torture.

[rispacooper.livejournal.com]

Doesn't the DOJ take its cues from the West Wing though?

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

They aren't SUPPOSED to. Check out Joan Walsh's column over on salon today. Greenwald also makes additional arguments about this today as well. We are so used to the political overwhelming the judicial branch of the government because of the previous administration's complete disregard for the Constitution, that we EXPECT the West Wing to be calling the shorts. Nope. They aren't supposed to. That's the point of the DOJ.

[rispacooper.livejournal.com]

Did you see Shepard Smith's little explosion? It was pretty good.

[rispacooper.livejournal.com]

Which by the way, now actually makes me want some pundit RPS with him. You know he was the desperate guy, doing whatever it took to get ahead, siding with assholes, all the while with this secret little honorable core that he kept hidden from the world, and suddenly he just couldn't take anymore and snapped and the real man came out for a second.

God I love imaginary backstory.